tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post102472320448801167..comments2024-01-01T16:01:35.711+00:00Comments on Dick Puddlecote: More Libertarian MagicDick Puddlecotehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01481866882188932892noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-66985693411563943972013-02-18T17:16:05.540+00:002013-02-18T17:16:05.540+00:00Joining this discussion belatedly.
So far as I a...Joining this discussion belatedly. <br /><br />So far as I am aware, in terms of traffic flow Poynton is at the top end of schemes where it has been tried successfully. How much higher such schemes can go remains to be determined.<br />In a 2008 presentation I addressed the question ""Where and when is shared space safe?" - http://john-adams.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/shared%20space.pdf<br /><br />I concluded with a few examples:<br />Safe: Campsites, Supermarket car parks, Italian hill towns, Old Amsterdam, Drachten, Haren, Seven Dials, Kensington High Street<br />Not Safe:M25, Westway, England 1920s, Bangladesh and Egypt 2008<br />And concluded that the safety of such schemes depends<br />• On prevailing safety culture<br />• On perceived status of pedestrians and cyclists<br />• On how the design of the scheme influences the perceptions of all road usersJohn Adamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-89641497833859994722013-02-16T23:21:54.951+00:002013-02-16T23:21:54.951+00:00Humps and speed cameras most definitely. Bus and c...Humps and speed cameras most definitely. Bus and cycle lanes I can understand more than traffic lights in urban areas.<br /><br /><br />The thing I like about shared space is that it makes people <i>think</i> more, which is important whether traffic is increased, decreased or remains constant IMO.<br /><br /><br />Baby steps, and all that. ;)Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-34451130132368070072013-02-16T22:41:07.971+00:002013-02-16T22:41:07.971+00:00I would have thought a true libertarian looking at...I would have thought a true libertarian looking at our roads would see the first priorities as getting rid of all the socialist paraphernalia of speed cameras, humps, bus lanes and cycle lanes.PeterA5145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-76093491580291793492013-02-16T22:39:10.500+00:002013-02-16T22:39:10.500+00:00One reason I asked was that It seemed to have take...One reason I asked was that It seemed to have taken about 6 months to build, and during that time traffic was restricted (one motorist complained in the video), and may well have been reduced in volume. As a motorist, I often re-route to avoid long term roadworks.cfrankdavishttp://cfrankdavis.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-89322704247045452372013-02-16T16:50:35.112+00:002013-02-16T16:50:35.112+00:00Right, I've put my other head on now. Given th...Right, I've put my other head on now. Given that I was trying to adopt a calm and constructive tone I think you were being unnecessarily antagonistic there, Martin.<br /><br /><i>"The A523 is not a “former” trunk road, it’s a trunk road."</i><br /><br />No, it's a former trunk road. It was detrunked in 2002 and East Cheshire is now the highway authority. I also think I am the only person responding to this post, except maybe you, Martin, who has actually experienced this scheme at first-hand.<br /><br /><i>"He claims that priority emerged out of nowhere. Wrong. It was imposed in 1929 at a meeting in Scotland Yard chaired by Police Commissioner, Sir Henry Maybury."</i><br /><br />And one of these reasons for this was dealing with the "dominant flow" issue which I described. Drivers were asserting priority even if they didn't legally have it.<br /><br /><i>Poynton also exposes Curmudgeon’s claim that pedestrians would not get a look-in at a shared space junction carrying high vehicle volumes. And he misses the point about Ben Hamilton-Baillie's genius in reducing multi-lane approaches to single lanes, thus calming traffic and doubling the space for people on foot.</i><br /><br />No, I said that pedestrians would not get a look-in on a motorway or similar road with high traffic volumes and speeds. They do at Poynton as traffic is reduced to one lane and speeds are low. But that underlines one of the key problems with such schemes, that of limiting capacity and throughput.<br /><br />I have no problem with schemes of this kind in low-speed, mixed-use urban environments. But the arguments for them ignore or downplay the fact that one of the key purposes of the road network is to be an efficient transport system, and if the principle is extended too far it will significantly reduce capacity and increase journey times. I take it you do not advocate that grade-separated junctions on motorways and similar roads should be ripped out and replaced with shared-space schemes. Or railway level crossings, for that matter. <br /><br />I don't claim to be a libertarian, but libertarianism doesn't mean a complete absence of structure and order. A libertarian would (presumably) not advocate the scrapping of factory production lines or rules for sports. And I think in a libertarian society we would probably have some pretty good limited-access toll roads with speed limits well above 70 mph.<br /><br /><i>"By the way, the level of debate at the Sabre forum recommended by Curmudgeon seems lamentable to me, apart from one decent comment by “Derek”."</i><br /><br />Possibly because you don't agree with it? There are plenty of folks posting on there who are very knowledgeable about roads and traffic.<br /><br />Incidentally, I remember you dipping your toe in the waters a while back in <a href="http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=25434" rel="nofollow">this thread</a>. <br /><br />I would say there's actually a lot of support on there for adopting a less command-and-control approach to traffic management, but you seem to insist on regarding the issue as a totally black-and-white one.PeterA5145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-41558798580882338142013-02-16T15:36:01.599+00:002013-02-16T15:36:01.599+00:00Scrub that, memory playing tricks - there is still...Scrub that, memory playing tricks - there is still a roundabout in the town.Longridernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-34057931742104626582013-02-16T15:35:52.354+00:002013-02-16T15:35:52.354+00:00Which roundabout do you mean? They removed the min...Which roundabout do you mean? They removed the mini roundabout in the town and replaced it with lights, which was a shame. At the end of the High Street they removed the lights and put in roundabouts. The harbour area is all shared space with some traffic calming humps. I take my students down that way when I'm training out at Clevedon. Good experience for 'em.Longridernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-866000074161097362013-02-16T15:30:58.544+00:002013-02-16T15:30:58.544+00:00You're quite possibly right there DP. I also l...You're quite possibly right there DP. I also lived in London in the 80s, so it could well have been then. Dates never were my strong suit!nisakimannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-80765213725226113872013-02-15T22:42:51.643+00:002013-02-15T22:42:51.643+00:00Traffic levels are the same as ever. Uncertainty i...Traffic levels are the same as ever. Uncertainty is no bad thing. It stimulates filtering (more or less) in turn: infinitely safer, more efficient and more FUN than regimentation and regulation. Signs - NO! Signs are a sign of failure to design roads in a way that expresses equality and a social contextMartin Cassinihttp://www.facebook.com/RoadsFiTforPeoplenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-65968326914081369372013-02-15T22:42:44.093+00:002013-02-15T22:42:44.093+00:00Very good point. But I expect if it an A road that...Very good point. But I expect if it an A road that avoidance would be quite convoluted and perhaps prohibitive time-wise. Then again, if it's happening, it just goes further to prove that people are fundamentally able to order themselves for best outcome without being constantly nudged and prodded. ;)Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-14682228807400448132013-02-15T22:42:38.720+00:002013-02-15T22:42:38.720+00:00Thanks for visiting, Martin.
The video for Portis...Thanks for visiting, Martin.<br /><br />The video for Portishead is embedded at the article linked above under <a href="http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/libertarian-magic.html" rel="nofollow">"libertarian magic" in 2010</a>.Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-13577596620447361412013-02-15T22:42:21.193+00:002013-02-15T22:42:21.193+00:00I thought I remembered Hyde Park Corner without li...I thought I remembered Hyde Park Corner without lights, but I only started driving in 1985. Are you sure the lights were put in that early? Live and learn, eh? ;)Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-68503697826407190302013-02-15T22:39:20.721+00:002013-02-15T22:39:20.721+00:00Amazing. And rather heart-warming.
But I couldn&...Amazing. And rather heart-warming.<br /><br /><br />But I couldn't help but think that, as a driver driving through this for the first or second time (and maybe even fifth or sixth time) I wouldn't have known what the hell to do, and would have watched other traffic to get some idea. Or maybe they have a double roundabout road sign on the approach roads?<br /><br /><br />Also, do the roads carry the same volume of traffic now as they did before? I think the figure was 25,000. If it's still carrying that much, it's a great success. But what if traffic has halved, and motorists are finding other routes?cfrankdavishttp://cfrankdavis.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-29173617490502323472013-02-15T17:34:45.812+00:002013-02-15T17:34:45.812+00:00Excellent bit of thinking there, and it obviously ...Excellent bit of thinking there, and it obviously works well looking at the video. <br /><br /><br /><br />I remember when I lived in central London in the late 60s, Hyde Park Corner (probably one of the busiest junctions in London) was unregulated and flowed surprisingly freely. Then they installed traffic lights, and the whole dynamic changed. Park Lane became a multi-lane car park and tempers regularly frayed. I always maintained that it was the worst thing they could have done. Like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.<br /><br /><br />One of the craziest traffic systems I encountered was when I was first in Australia. In Victoria the rule (at all junctions) was "give way to the right". This led to situations where you could be barreling down the highway at a good lick, and someone could pull out in front of you from a dirt road on your right with no warning, and if you hit them it would be your fault. It was a bloody nightmare. They changed it not long after I arrived to give some roads priority over others, which I have to say improved the situation no end.<br /><br /><br />However, to go back to the Hyde Park Corner example, when it was left to the drivers to sort it out on their own, they did, and far more efficiently than any traffic controls could. People were mildly aggressive (insofar as they would slowly force their way into the traffic flow), but also generally courteous (insofar as when it was obvious the vehicle entering the flow was quite determined, they would give way with good grace).<br /><br /><br />The problem we have these days is that the mindset of the lawmakers is that if they don't control us, we will run riot, which of course is patently untrue.nisakimannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-3942089912336017102013-02-15T08:17:56.306+00:002013-02-15T08:17:56.306+00:00Curmudgeon is reluctant to acknowledge that self-c...Curmudgeon is reluctant to acknowledge that self-control (as distinct from interventionist traffic control) can work at busy junctions, especially if they are designed to express a social context, but his faint praise is undermined by the obvious success of the Poynton scheme. The A523 is not a “former” trunk road, it’s a trunk road. He claims that priority emerged out of nowhere. Wrong. It was imposed in 1929 at a meeting in Scotland Yard chaired by Police Commissioner, Sir Henry Maybury. At that meeting, the RAC pushed through the most catastrophic decision ever to inflict our people in peacetime: the distinction between major and minor roads, and the granting of superior rights – priority – to main roads at the expense of side road traffic and walkers. Roads became so dangerous, and so many people were killed, that police on point duty were installed to break the priority streams of traffic so other people could cross in relative, but not guaranteed safety. Soon the police were replaced by cheaper traffic lights. Thus, with stupefying ineptitude, and at staggering continuing cost, traffic regulation addresses the manufactured symptoms of our road safety and congestion problems, never the cause – priority. Poynton also exposes Curmudgeon’s claim that pedestrians would not get a look-in at a shared space junction carrying high vehicle volumes. And he misses the point about Ben Hamilton-Baillie's genius in reducing multi-lane approaches to single lanes, thus calming traffic and doubling the space for people on foot. Note also there are quite a few free on-street parking spaces. With Portishead, Dick, it wasn’t that they found no control “scary”. As is clear from my little film, the locals loved it (I wanted to add a link to the film, but can't see how to do it - it comes up if you google Roads FiT for People). But the lumpen transport chiefs, who turned down my invitation to go the whole hog and rid Portishead of all its moronic traffic lights, lacked the vision to pursue authentic reform. What every community needs is a councillor with the vim and vision of Poynton’s Howard Murray. He overcame the oh-so-reasonable resistance of the Curmudgeons of this world. By the way, the level of debate at the Sabre forum recommended by Curmudgeon seems lamentable to me, apart from one decent comment by “Derek”. Perhaps I should sign this Curmudgeon 2, but I'll sign as myself, Martin CassiniMartin Cassinihttp://www.facebook.com/RoadsFiTforPeoplenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-25704109952961306152013-02-15T08:06:31.905+00:002013-02-15T08:06:31.905+00:00visit http://www.vapelikeaboss.com/visit http://www.vapelikeaboss.com/PeterKenneth24noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-42168537680563098282013-02-14T23:19:42.010+00:002013-02-14T23:19:42.010+00:00Aww, spoilsport. ;)
Isn't it funny that if y...Aww, spoilsport. ;)<br /><br /><br />Isn't it funny that if you speak to any driver about their experience when lights are out, they will always say how great it was. Yet if you suggest it be a permanent feature, they'll babble on about safety?Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-61434503396391708442013-02-14T21:38:40.905+00:002013-02-14T21:38:40.905+00:00The problem is that this whole "shared space&...The problem is that this whole "shared space" thing works far better than the so-called experts let on - all it takes is for traffic lights to break down and everything is 100% better.<br /><br /><br />See, I can express myself without swearing.Mark Wadsworthhttp://www.facebook.com/mark.wadsworth.90noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-57554365998182454302013-02-14T21:20:41.555+00:002013-02-14T21:20:41.555+00:00Precisely. It's a shame that it takes 'cou...Precisely. It's a shame that it takes 'courage' now to consider something beneficial, but slightly different.Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-43523217842688671002013-02-14T21:19:33.351+00:002013-02-14T21:19:33.351+00:00Thanks for adding that, Dave. The Dutch experience...Thanks for adding that, Dave. The Dutch experience is very useful to remember considering the number of cyclists on their roads.Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-17169056054639222642013-02-14T21:04:41.992+00:002013-02-14T21:04:41.992+00:00Finally, common sense and a shift back towards sel...Finally, common sense and a shift back towards self-determination. People can think for themselves, how amazing! I loved the film, it shows all the best that can come from truly courageous thinkers in a local council. We need more!Redinthefacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-48103266604926971462013-02-14T20:46:54.801+00:002013-02-14T20:46:54.801+00:00As I wrote in my article: "I have experienced...As I wrote in my article: "I have experienced this (shared space) in Luton of all places. The sensory overload is severe and instinctively you slow down and you have to make a conscience decision as to where you have to be and how you interact with other road users if driving.<br /><br />In Groningen, in the Netherlands, they knocked down a primary school wall and extended the playground across the road. “The only barrier between children and vehicles is now a low, one-rail fence decorated with colored balls. There are no road markings, signals or signs. Bright yellow benches extend into the road area. It’s as if motorists are driving through a playground. The result was no accidents and a 7 MPH reduction in speed.”<br /><br />In 2007, a separate study by the Dutch Noordelijke Hogeschool Leeuwarden University of Applied Sciences found “a significant reduction in the number of total injuries” in the Laweiplein after remodelling in 2003. Accidents fell from eight a year to just one in 2004 and 2005 respectively, despite larger traffic and pedestrian volumes.”<br /><br />http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1879/140mph_speed_limit_on_motorways_why_stop_there/page/2DaveAtherton20noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-67795360047956514362013-02-14T20:38:40.097+00:002013-02-14T20:38:40.097+00:00Regarding Portishead, I heard today that it was al...Regarding Portishead, I heard today that it was all too scary for them and they have now installed a roundabout. So sad.<br /><br /><br />Not only does it require the public being won over, it also needs councillors with some cojones to back it up.Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-55265088587544555922013-02-14T20:36:05.183+00:002013-02-14T20:36:05.183+00:00There is definitely an aesthetic to it, the new sp...There is definitely an aesthetic to it, the new space outside the church was good to see. Not just for funerals, either, I expect brides will find that very attractive for their drop off point. :)Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3141759542968821728.post-49305864122252620282013-02-14T20:34:37.626+00:002013-02-14T20:34:37.626+00:00I'm glad you joined in as 140 characters are a...I'm glad you joined in as 140 characters are a bit limited. ;)<br /><br /><br />It's also good that they put this film online so you can see what I did on the day. I'd kinda agree that there are some junctions are not suitable while others definitely are (Jeremy Irons said the same during our short discussion), but I think public sector bods set the bar too conservatively. Possibly why I believe this experiment is important to ascertain where the boundary truly lies. If you, as a local, think it a bridge too far but indicators seem to show it is better - even marginally - than previously, then it has been well worth doing.<br /><br /><br />Cheers for the forum link you posted, I'll read it over lunch tomorrow when I have more time. :)Dick_Puddlecotenoreply@blogger.com